Pah. A couple of things: First, I didn't *recommend* everything on the list;
I just rattled off some names that, even in hindsight, look fine enough to
me. And second, to dismiss great bands like Dazzling Killmen and Colossamite
(both from St. Louis), Johnboy (from Austin, TX) and Crain (Louisville) as
"shlocky Chicago-esque music" makes me doubt the validity of any of Josh's
preceding arguments, even though in some sick way he appears to be agreeing
with me. I'll concede that Storm&Stress does not fall into the formal
definition of math rock, and its only tie to the genre is Don Caballero
guitarist Ian Williams (who, in what little time I've known him, has never
been a pothead). Good point to file them next to U.S. Maple as
expressionistic rock (Jesus, we're splitting hairs here); however, U.S.
Maple did grow out of what at least *I* heard as a math-rock band, Shorty.
Oh, and I'll also concede that upstart math-rocking groups like 90 Day Men
and Lustre King will change the lives of few people but their publicist. But
Table, shlock? Please. That EP--released on CD by Humble, incidentally--is
not only an essential piece of mid-'90s math-rock; it's everything in Josh's
"textbook" (which I'd like to see sometime) definition and then some. Even
non-IDM IM creator Jim O'Rourke endorses 'em. Whoah! And I never suggested
that Tortoise were math rock merely because they use some "odd" meters
(though 5/4, 7/4, 6/8, etc. aren't exactly new discoveries). McEntire's
drumming in Tortoise, though consistently pleasing to my loins, sounds
toothless next to anything he cut in Bastro. And as for A Minor Forest being
a fine example of math rock, I'd suggest that they're a better example of
technique's ability to override expression. Classically educated, my eye.
Not only is their music usually just a string of empty gestures (i.e.,
milking the idiom for its own sake); it's close enough to Slint's "Tweez" to
incur legal action. Zzzz. Anyway, I'd like to know what band Joshua was in
(I might even have one of their EPs buried somewhere); despite the
disagreements, I think we'd hit it off. Oh, and there's another term,
"progcore," which has also been used to describe some of the above
bands--e.g., Hurl, Bitch Magnet, Vineland, etc.--but I don't own the
dictionary in which it's defined. Help, please? And I'm sorry to have
disrupted ebonics classes and Squarepusher flame wars for this tangential
lump of doo-doo.
Aaron
----- Original Message -----
From: Joshua Reuven <jzucker@erols.com>
To: <burgess@altpress.com>; <idm-digest@hyperreal.org>
Sent: Friday, June 04, 1999 7:04 PM
Subject: (idm) math rock and whatnot...
quoted 1 line A few off the top of my head: Don Caballero (buy everything),
> > A few off the top of my head: Don Caballero (buy everything),quoted 2 lines Table (hard to
> > Table (hard to
> > find, but worth the search), Bastro (future Gastr Del Sol/Tortoisequoted 4 lines playing white-knuckled mayhem with many interesting time changes; beware
> > playing white-knuckled mayhem with many interesting time changes; beware
> > first EP, recorded w/drum machine), 90 Day Men (from Chicago; ignore the
> > "singer"'s British affectations), Colossamite (start w/"All Lingo's
> > Clamor"), Dazzling Killmen (anything), Lustre King (new LP has manyquoted 1 line moments, but more bad ones), Johnboy (start w/"Claim Dedications"),
> > moments, but more bad ones), Johnboy (start w/"Claim Dedications"),quoted 3 lines Lizaveta (think instrumental-period Black Flag with beards; start
> > Lizaveta (think instrumental-period Black Flag with beards; start
> > w/"...Hopelessness And Shame"), early Slint, Rodan (Slintastic), Bitch
> > Magnet (start w/"Ben Hur"), Hurl, Crain, Honorquoted 3 lines (all great & cut from the same tattered Voivod patch), Iceburn, um...
> > (all great & cut from the same tattered Voivod patch), Iceburn, um...
> >
> > There's lots more, but I'm behind a desk and can't bother worrying aboutquoted 1 line at the moment. The definiton's sort of broad, but think loud
> > at the moment. The definiton's sort of broad, but think loudquoted 1 line bands playing w/finesse, infrequent elliptical (and generally bad)
> > bands playing w/finesse, infrequent elliptical (and generally bad)quoted 31 lines numerous asymmetric time signatures, and six degrees of separation from
> > numerous asymmetric time signatures, and six degrees of separation from
> > Chicago or Louisville. King Crimson's "Red" appears to be a template.
>
>
>
>
> hmm...i would disagree with the majority of your list...
>
> the only authority i would have on this subject is that before
> electronics, i was in a math rock band...
>
> tortoise is not math rock...there is nothing in tortoise that is
> slightly mathrock....the textbook description of math rock goes
> something like this...
> angular music, usually in odd time signatures, many tempo changes,
> start-stop rythms...
>
> of course, the "classic" math rock band is don caballero...storm&stress
> is not math rock at all. to even compare them to that just because they
> share members is silly...other "classics" would be rodan, a minor
> forest, breadwinner, bastro...
>
> the other stuff on your list is all shlocky chicago-esque music...
>
>
> yeesh...aren't i the dork...
>
>
>
> -joshua...
>